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Thread: Are any Armor Values off?

  1. #21
    [QUOTE=SDLeary;26274][pedant] Dont confuse Lamellar and Laminar. [/quoute]

    Greg used Lamellar in the Book of Armies. Mind you, he also used Compound Bow in Book of Knight & Ladies, which I know was supposed to be Composite Bow.




    [quote]
    Assuming equivalent padding, Segmentata should be superior to Lamellar [/pedant]

    Maybe, it doesn't matter that much if there is a lot of exposed flesh.



    [quote]
    Perhaps. It could also be that he did intend soft armor for the Legenarius, with cuirboilli for their commanders (centurions??), who would probably be equivalent of Squires. Actual officers having metal armor of some type. [quote]

    Maybe. I can only guess about things he indended, except for those few things where he revealed his intentions to me, or to others who have revealed it. Error, typo, plan in the works, experiment, placeholder?

    I'm actually glad that there is a bunch more material info in Book of Armies. I haven't picked that one up because I thought it was literally just army lists for the various factions.

    SDLeary
    Yes there is, and yes that's what it is. Book of Armies is pages and pages of Armies, group so that you can roll a d20 to see who the PK are fighting. Basically the same format as the samples in the Book of Battle. But there are a lot of unusual entries and people wearing some odd armors, sometimes with different values. Some examples:

    Spearmen in Leather Jack (2 points)
    Roman infantry in a Lorica (12 points, type of Lorica unspecified) with a Heavy (8 point) shield.
    The Black Marchers of Lindsey (10 point mail and 9 point magic)
    Merlin (36 points of magic)
    Picts (6 points of Tatoos. Well they're not Merlin)
    Footmen (in 2 point padding)
    Footmen (in 3 point padding)
    White Dracon Warriors (in 20 point dragon hide)
    Crossbowmen (2 point helmet)
    Cambirans with Small Shields (4 points)
    Alpine Mercenaries (in 4 point Quilt)
    Barbarian Spearmen (in 5 point padding and helm)
    Ethopian Infantry with Long (10 point) shields
    Archers in (Helm and Padding worth 4 points)
    Archers in (Helm and Quilt, worth 5 points)
    Herdsmen (Thick Woolens 2 points)
    Irish Hero (35 magic)
    Broad shouldered Spearmen (Super Chain 20 points)
    The Raven Host (Magic Feather cape 18 points)

    and that's just scratching the surface.


    Also, Gothic Plate is listed as 18 (not 21, but lacks the frog helm), and it has leather(6) and cuirbolli (8) on the same page.

    Now my rationalization for some of the discrepancies is difference in coverage. Hence a Leather Jack protect for 2 points while a Full suit of Leather (w/helm) is worth 4.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Morien View Post
    Coverage is totally different, and I think you give Segmentata way too much benefit in protection. Both mail and segmentata are proof against cuts. Mail might be more vulnerable to crushing (maces), but also has more padding underneath. But it is the arms especially, and legs secondarily, where Segmentata really falls down in the rankings. Not to mention all the openings on the throat, armpits, etc. Segmentata doesn't even cover the groin.
    Segmentata was worn over and Aketon, or so the current wisdom proclaims. I think I agree as the leather straps that held hoops together with the necessary rivets would have been way too uncomfortable otherwise. To the point I think that troopers would have discarded it.

    Now Atgxtg pointed out that in his kit, there are manica and all other sorts of pieces, but it still leaves plenty of gaps, while Partial Plate has plate OVER chain OVER padding. Lorica Segmentata would be equivalent, IMHO, to something like Brigandine doublet, by itself. But the Partial Plate would be much more than that.
    While it's true that at points in history, a cuirass was worn over a hauberk or haubergon, that is not how Plate and Mail (partial plate) is normally seen constructed. You have an arming doublet that has buckles at the shoulders. to these are attached mail sleeves, with a tail that is long enough to cover the armpit opening on a cuirass. You also have hose that have a garter system sewn on, and mail leggings in much the same fashion as the sleeves attached. So no overlapping of mail and plate on the torso. If there was no plate skirt, then a skirt of chain may also be belted around the waist.

    Now a Brigandine (Heavy Scale) was worn over chain, but also worn in place of a cuirass in the method outlined above.

    SDLeary

    EDIT: in this post I have confused Partial Plate, and Plate, but the concept remains. And a Segmentata is essentially a form of plate cuirass.
    Last edited by SDLeary; 12-04-2018 at 10:44 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by SDLeary View Post
    Segmentata was worn over and Aketon, or so the current wisdom proclaims. I think I agree as the leather straps that held hoops together with the necessary rivets would have been way too uncomfortable otherwise. To the point I think that troopers would have discarded it.
    It was worn over something. I think we all can probably agree on that. But that's factored into all the metal armors in Pendragon.


    [QUOTE=SDLeary;26276]
    While it's true that at points in history, a cuirass was worn over a hauberk or haubergon, that is not how Plate and Mail (partial plate) is normally seen constructed. You have an arming doublet that has buckles at the shoulders. to these are attached mail sleeves, with a tail that is long enough to cover the armpit opening on a cuirass. You also have hose that have a garter system sewn on, and mail leggings in much the same fashion as the sleeves attached. So no overlapping of mail and plate on the torso. [/qote]

    Unless they wore a bishops mantel. So there were example of it. And the head often had 4 layers of protection (Helmet, skullcap, mail, and padding)


    If there was no plate skirt, then a skirt of chain may also be belted around the waist.
    Yup, and it might have partially overlapped with the armor on the upper leg.

    Now a Brigandine (Heavy Scale)/

    Brigadine isn't scale per say. It's plate riveted between two pieces of leather (or cloth). Close to scale but probably a little better due to the extra layer. On the other hand, it would probably be a bit more flexible, and have some spots between the plates where the only protection was double leather, so that might even it out a bit with scale. In the spreadsheet they work out fairly close.
    In game term's I might give maces the extra die against Brigadine but not against scale.

    was worn over chain, but also worn in place of a cuirass in the method outlined above.
    Yeah and again it comes down to which build you go with. Brigadine could be worn without the mail, and that is the way I have it listed. My reason ford oing it that way was so that I could save the armor over mail suits for Greg's 22 point plate that is -10 to combat skills. To keep things simple, and make it easy not to use the 22 point option, I simply made it 16 point plate with additional points of 6 points of mail underneath. That way I didn't have to change plate to get to the 22 points.

  4. #24
    They have to update this site, there seems to be issues when quoting. Not sure who's quoting who anymore.

    Brigadine isn't scale per say. It's plate riveted between two pieces of leather (or cloth). Close to scale but probably a little better due to the extra layer. On the other hand, it would probably be a bit more flexible, and have some spots between the plates where the only protection was double leather, so that might even it out a bit with scale. In the spreadsheet they work out fairly close.
    In game term's I might give maces the extra die against Brigadine but not against scale.
    Its not Plate, but its pieces of metal that can vary between the size used on Scale, and larger pieces that would probably be called Splint armor if it were on the outside of the garment.

    A common form of the armor from Europe had plates that were about the size of Lamellar and overlapped (like scale), with larger pieces to cover each breast (one to each side of the front seam). Eastern forms may lack these larger plates over the breast.

    The Visby Brigandine is an example of a brigandine that used larger plates about the size of splints. This form certainly provide better protection from concussive blows, but would need an aid to get on as it cinched up the back and at the shoulders.

    The later Jack of Plates was the same concept, but tended to use even smaller lames or scales because it was generally heavily waisted and tailored.

    Now, to keep things simple, it should probably be the same as scale.

    Yeah and again it comes down to which build you go with. Brigadine could be worn without the mail, and that is the way I have it listed. My reason ford oing it that way was so that I could save the armor over mail suits for Greg's 22 point plate that is -10 to combat skills. To keep things simple, and make it easy not to use the 22 point option, I simply made it 16 point plate with additional points of 6 points of mail underneath. That way I didn't have to change plate to get to the 22 points.
    Yeah, I can see that. I wonder though if Greg wasn't talking about various stages of tournament armor for the revised plate. That would certainly explain the frog-mouth. Do you or Morien have a link to that discussion?

    SDLeary

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by SDLeary View Post
    They have to update this site, there seems to be issues when quoting. Not sure who's quoting who anymore.
    That could be my fault to some extent.


    Its not Plate
    Yeah it is, at least some of the time. Brigadine was often made out of used plate armor. Someone's breastplate got damaged? Well then they (or their widow) replaced that piece and the armorer used it to make brigadine. [/quote]

    that would probably be called Splint armor if it were on the outside of the garment.
    Although functionally similar, , there are differences. Brigadine used larger plates, was riveted, and had a second layer of leather or padding.



    [quote]
    A common form of the armor from Europe had plates that were about the size of Lamellar and overlapped (like scale), with larger pieces to cover each breast (one to each side of the front seam). Eastern forms may lack these larger plates over the breast.

    The Visby Brigandine is an example of a brigandine that used larger plates about the size of splints. This form certainly provide better protection from concussive blows, but would need an aid to get on as it cinched up the back and at the shoulders.

    The later Jack of Plates was the same concept, but tended to use even smaller lames or scales because it was generally heavily waisted and tailored.

    Now, to keep things simple, it should probably be the same as scale. [quote]

    The mostly do. The reason why the Jack of Plate has a lower value on the table is because it is just a Jack and helmet, and it just covers the torso, wheras Brigadine is considered to be part of a set of armor.
    The next time I list suits I'll describe them a little better.
    I think that for the most part you, Morien and I are in agreement on things, when were are talking about the same thing. Most of our disagreements are because we are thinking of different builds of similar armor. So next time I'll give a better description so we can all be on the same page. I'll post version of the loricas with and without the extra pieces so we can compare how they were normally worn with the 12 and 14 point versions in Book of Armies.

    And that way we can also decide on a common version of the armors for KAP.



    Yeah, I can see that. I wonder though if Greg wasn't talking about various stages of tournament armor for the revised plate. That would certainly explain the frog-mouth. Do you or Morien have a link to that discussion?
    No he wasn't taking about Jousting plate, since it has a -10 penalty if you are using a shield. As for a link, it would lead back to http://nocturnalmediaforum.com/iecar...ades-from-BoKLhere. Greg's 22 point plate was something he posted on the first page. Not much to go on, and far from definitive.
    Last edited by Atgxtg; 12-05-2018 at 02:52 PM.

  6. #26

    Armor Updates

    Here is an updated and more detailed list of armor, with pieces, coverage and protection scores. Total Protection has been rounded off. It's only partially complete.I'll add the other builds to this as wel go along, but I though this would be nice to help us to agree on just what each ""suit" is.

    One thing worth noting is that, after looking t some of these builds side by side, I'm convinced that Morien is right in that the Lorica Hamata, the Hauberogon, and various other Mail shirt are close enough to be the same thing under different names.

    I'd also like to field the possibility that Loricas (or Haubergeons) with significant reinforcement on the upper chest and shoulders could be considered "Reinforced Haubergeons" and be worth 9 points.

    I put some other notes with the relevant builds. Hopefully this way we can agree on what we are disagreeing about.

    Oh, and thanks for the input. It really helps me to make this better.


    Arming Doublet/Gambeson (2 points)
    Arming Doublet ( Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2

    Leather Jack (2 points)
    Leather Jack ( Sh (half), Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp (half)) 1.5 points


    Gambeson (4 points)
    Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
    Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
    Padded Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5


    Quilted Armor (4 points)

    Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
    Quilted Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
    Quklited Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5

    Leather Armor (4 points)
    Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
    Leather Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
    Soft Leather Leggins (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5

    Leather Armor, Hooded (4 points)
    Leather Hood and Mantel (Sk, Nk, Ch (half), Sh (half)) 1
    Leather Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
    Soft Leather Leggins (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5


    Hard Leather Armor/Cuirbouilli (6 points)
    Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
    Hard Leather Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 3.25
    Hard Leather Leggins (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 1.25


    Jack of Plate ( 8 or10 points)
    Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
    Jack of Plate (Sh (half), Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp (half)) 6.75 or 8.25 (single or double leather?)
    Note: Value depends on if it is a single or double layer of leather or padded.


    Haubergeon (8 points)
    Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
    Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
    Haubergeon (Sh, Ch, Ua, Ab, Hp, Th (Partial)) 3
    Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
    Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5


    Saxon Haubergeon with Halfmask (8 points)
    Halfmask Helm, padded (Sk) 1.75
    Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
    Haubergeon (Sh, Ch, Ua, Ab, Hp, Th (Partial)) 3
    Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
    Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
    Note: Change in Helm isn’t enough to make a difference here. So we either have to improve this is some way or drop it down to 10 points.


    Celtic Reinforced Mail (8 points)

    Lobstertail Skullcap, padded (Sk, Fa (partial. cheekplates), Nk (back) 2
    Lorica Hamata (Sh, Ua (half), Ch (x1.25), Ab, Hp, Gr, Th (Half)) 3.25
    Gambeson, short sleeved (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 1.75
    Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
    Leather Shoes (Ft) 0.25
    Notes: Taken from an illustration. Upon reexamination, the reinforcement is less than the example I used for the Hamata, armor reduced.
    I also don’t like the leather shoes in this, as I didn’t include them in the other suits up to now, and they certainly would have had shoes. Fortunately, the shoes don’t make a difference here, so we can take them out, or add them to the prior builds.


    Lorica Hamata (9 points)
    Roman Helm, padded (Sk, Fa (partial. cheekplates), Nk (back) 2.5
    Lorica Hamata (Sh(x2), Ua (half), Ch (x1.75), Ab, Hp, Gr, Th (Half)) 4
    Gambeson, short sleeved (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 1.75
    Bezainted Belt/Shirt (Hips (partial) Groin, Thighs (Partial)) 0.25
    Notes: Higher value that Haubergeon due to the extra layer of mail over the shoulders and chest. Upon reflection this is probably more of an extreme case, and dropping this down to 8 point with the haubergeon makes sense.
    After seeing the stats for the full Hauberk, next to this, I deifnatly think the Hatmata needs to be reduced a bit, 3.25 max, and for an extreme example. So puttingh all the various Celtic, Saxon, and other mail short sleeved mail shirts into the 8 point Haubergeon range is fine with me.
    Could add a “reinforced” Haubergeon at a higher cost to reflect this, if we wanted to.


    Early Norman Mail (10 points)
    Skullcap, padded (Sk) 1.5
    Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
    Hauberk,long sleeved (Sh, Ch, UpA, El, Lr A, Ab, Hp, Gr, Th) 3.5
    Mail Mittons (Hands) 0.25
    Mail Hose (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.75
    Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
    Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
    Mail Sabatons (Feet) 0.25


    Improved Norman Mail (11 points)
    Skullcap with Nasal, padded (Sk, Fa (partial)) 1.75
    Mail Coif with avential over lower face (Sk, (Fa (partial) Nk) 1.25
    Hauberk,long sleeved (Sh, Ch, UpA, El, Lr A, Ab, Hp, Gr, Th) 3.5
    Mail Mittons (Hands) 0.25
    Mail Hose (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.75
    Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
    Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
    Mail Sabatons (Feet) 0.25
    Note: Currently, this only works out to 10.25 points. I can add a quarter point of this somewhere, probably by making the coif a little bigger.

    Lorica Segmentata (11 points)-the version most people think about
    Roman Helm, padded (Sk, Fa (partial cheekplates), Nk (back) 2.5
    Lorica Segmentata (Shoulders, Chest, Abdomen) 6
    Gambeson, short sleeved (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 1.75
    Cintas&Cingium (Bezainted Belt/Skirt) (Hips (partial) Groin, Thighs (Partial)) 0.25
    Notes: Probably should only get partial shoulder, which would drop this down to 10 points.
    The Lorica gets a layering bonus and leather backing. Would be about 4 points, the same as the Hamata, without those modifiers. So I could see dropping this down to 8 or 9, and then use the various "add on" pieces to get to the higher version in the Book of Armies.




    Reinforced Mail (12 points)
    Heaume Skull, Face, Neck (w/padding) 3.5
    Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
    Hauberk,long sleeved (Sh, Ch, UpA, El, Lr A, Ab, Hp, Gr, Th) 3.5
    Mail Mittons (Hands) 0.25
    Aillettes (Shoulders or Neck) 0.25
    Mail Hose (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.75
    Plate Poleyrns, small Knees 0.25
    Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
    Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
    Mail Sabatons (Feet) 0.25

    Partial Plate/Combination Armor (14 points)
    Heaume Skull, Face, Neck (w/padding) 3.5
    Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
    Hauberk,long sleeved (Sh, Ch, UpA, El, Lr A, Ab, Hp, Gr, Th) 3.5
    Spaulders (Shoulders) 0.5
    Rerebraces (Upper Arms) 0.25
    Couters (Elbows) 0
    Vambraces (Forearms) 0.25
    Gantlets (Hands) 0.25
    Cuisses (Thighs) 0.75
    Poleyns (Knees) 0.25
    Greaves (Calves) 0.5
    Sabatons (Feet) 0.25
    Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
    Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5


    Plate (16 points)
    Visored Helm, padded ( Skull, Face, Neck (back)) 3
    Bishops Mantel (Nk, Ch (partial) Shoulders (partial)) or Mail Coif (Sk, Nk) 1
    Gorget (Neck, front (throat)) 0.25
    Breastplate (Chest (front), Abdomen (front)) 1.75
    Backplate (Chest (back), Abdomen (back)) 1.75
    Spaulders (Shoulders) 0.5
    Rerebraces (Upper Arms) 0.25
    Couters (Elbows) 0
    Vambraces (Forearms) 0.25
    Gantlets (Hands) 0.25
    Faulds Hips, partial Abdomen 1.75
    Tassets (Upper Thighs) 0.25
    Cutlet (Buttocks) 0.5
    Cuisses (Thighs) 0.75
    Poleyns (Knees) 0.25
    Greaves (Calves) 0.5
    Sabatons (Feet) 0.25
    Gambeson (Sh, Ch, Ab, Gn, Hp, Th, Ua, El, La) 2
    Padded Chausses/Leggings (Thighs, Knees, Calves) 0.5
    Notes: Lots of ways to build this. Couters are currently at 0 points, but I'll probably bump them up to 0.25, which would work this out to exactly 16 points of protection.



    Okay, all set for feedback. Will add more armors to this as we go along
    Last edited by Atgxtg; 12-06-2018 at 02:59 AM. Reason: added partial plate

  7. #27
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atgxtg View Post
    Here is an updated and more detailed list of armor, with pieces, coverage and protection scores. Total Protection has been rounded off. It's only partially complete.I'll add the other builds to this as wel go along, but I though this would be nice to help us to agree on just what each ""suit" is.

    MUCH SNIPPAGE

    Reinforced Mail (12 points)
    ** bits and bobs**

    Plate (16 points)
    ** bits and bobs**

    Okay, all set for feedback. Will add more armors to this as we go along
    First - LOVE IT!

    But, one(two) question(s).
    Where did Partial Plate or a Coat of Plates go?
    Also, what about Brigandine?

    Think the armor found at the Battle of Visby.

    Thanks.
    I have fought my fight, I have lived my life,
    I have drunk my share of wine.
    From Trier to Cologne ‘twas never a knight
    Lived a merrier life than mine.

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=SirUkpyr;26285]First - LOVE IT![quotwe]

    Nice to know that there are those who do.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirUkpyr View Post
    But, one(two) question(s).
    Where did Partial Plate or a Coat of Plates go?
    Nowhere. I just haven't got the builds for those ready yet. I believe Partial Plate is still coming up a bit short in the protection rating.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirUkpyr View Post
    Also, what about Brigandine?

    Think the armor found at the Battle of Visby.
    I have it, but haven't finished a suit of it yet. Same with Scale/Lorica Squamata. Those Roman armors are driving me nuts, and I could have walked the distance. I'm hoping to come up with light version that match up n the 8-10 range and heavy 12-14 point version with addtional pieces that match up with GPC and Boof of Armies.

    I'll try to finish it the missing entries tonight, add in gothic plate, maybe see about the tilting pieces. Oh, and go though Book of Armies and see what I've missed.

    I just wanted to try and get us all talking about the same armor so we can work though differences in opinions and get a nice master table of armor that we can all work with. Plus it's much easeri to adjust numubers now and adapt than finish it an dhave to go back and redo everything after people see it and point out the bugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirUkpyr View Post
    Thanks.
    Thank you. I't nice to know this isn't being done in vain.

  9. #29
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    It is useless to try and match the inflated Roman armor values in GPC and ARMIES: they very much have the 'katana coolness factor' in them, IMHO.

    Or skills, for that matter. Just take look at the Cataphracti (GPC, p. 379). These guys are better Lancers than almost all Round Table Knights (save for mature Lancelot, Old Lamorak, and Old Gawaine), and at the time of the Roman War, they are BETTER than Lancelot himself. And there are whole units worth of them. ARMIES went to the other extreme with them (Lance 15 and Mace 10 with 4d6 damage is way too little for these guys, they are supposed to be highly trained, elite cavalrymen, but not the best knights ever), but then added The Last True Century who could duel RTK knights and win.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Morien View Post
    It is useless to try and match the inflated Roman armor values in GPC and ARMIES: they very much have the 'katana coolness factor' in them, IMHO.
    Oh, I haven't given up hope. I think the armguard, leg guard and face mask can get it up to 12 points. It will be a histroically accruate build, if a historically rare one. And we can drop back to a 8 point build for "normal" Romans.

    Or skills, for that matter. Just take look at the Cataphracti (GPC, p. 379). These guys are better Lancers than almost all Round Table Knights (save for mature Lancelot, Old Lamorak, and Old Gawaine), and at the time of the Roman War, they are BETTER than Lancelot himself.
    Lance 27. Yeah, I don't think there are many people around with that. They are described as an elite force, so they are probably not the common Cataphacti, but even so. Af for their being better than Lancelot during the Roman War, well I think Greg went too far in the other direction there. KAP5 Young Lance isn't all that fantastic. He's good, but certainly not good enough to be undefeated, or unbeatable.


    [quote]
    And there are whole units worth of them.[//quote]
    Probably not. They even have the superior armor upgrade, too. I could see there being ONE unit like this, and that the stats aren;t exactly indicative of the rest of the cataphatic. But that alsomakes them a poor choce for a inclusion.

    ARMIES went to the other extreme with them (Lance 15 and Mace 10 with 4d6 damage is way too little for these guys, they are supposed to be highly trained, elite cavalrymen, but not the best knights ever), but then added The Last True Century who could duel RTK knights and win.
    Yeah. Armies has a lot of inconsistencies. What I wish we had was something similar to how they did up the Knight stats. Basically a scale of Quality for enemy troops "Ordinaty, Good, Notable, et.) that you could reverce to get skills. Say in a 5 (Unskilled) to 25 (Master) range.

    I don't mind the Last True Century. They are a unique unit and not something that should appear more than once in a campaign, if at all.


    Part of the trouble with Armies is that it's a fine line between too little and too much. Most PKs tend to get their main knightly skills (Sword, Lance, Horsemanship) to 20 ASAP. So opponents below 15 sklll aren't much fo a threat,especially if on foot. So the Last Century needs a 25 skill just to end up with a 20. I guess BoA 2.0 went to the other extreme. Maybe we should average the two?
    Last edited by Atgxtg; 12-06-2018 at 01:20 AM.

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