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Thread: Paladin-Inspired Character Creation for KAP

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khanwulf View Post
    Now if you're starting all squires at 1d6+7 in attributes other than APP, how might the SIZ/STR penalty be represented? As a buy-off that slows growth? (So every other stat point only reduces penalty by 1, until it is zero.)
    Easy. Decide what 'female modifiers' should be, like -2 SIZ & STR, +1 DEX, +3 APP (off the top of my head) and use that for the female knights who want to start with a physical disadvantage as warriors.

    As a note, I'd probably still take the detailed cultural skills as base from BoK&L--do you think that would throw off maturation skill points? The book suggests 16-y.o. squires/maids drop any starting skill by 3 points or to 5, whichever is higher. All this obviously tanks female combat skills--which are thin anyway in BoK&L, meaning that one would knight later to meet minimum requirements.
    My gut-feeling I would look at the rules in Book of the Entourage (p. 16) about making a Squire Character. But admittedly, those were not really intended for 'maiden decides to pick up a sword'. The boys, after all, start basic sword training already during their page years while girls do not.

    I have not done any detailed analysis on the number of skill points, but I would imagine that if you take a 14-year old lady-in-waiting, you would focus more on patching up their weapon skills than worrying about their embroidery. So in such cases, as a GM, I would allow them to use some of their non-combat skill points to raise the combat skills, to illustrate this need to patch up the lack in their training. Which would address the starting skill imbalance.

    Speaking of minimum requirements: why is "Trait at 16" in there? You can start a KaP knight with no Traits at 16+ if you choose, so that requirement seems arbitrary and (perhaps) intended to gate immediate knighthood prospects to characters receiving Trait bonuses from culture (and who rolled well).
    Just guessing, but probably because KAP 5.2 gives one Famous Trait to new knights at chargen, and this way, new knights all have that one Famous Trait. The requirement is not in Paladin.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Khanwulf View Post
    Am following this thread with interest. Next generation of PCs will start as squires and probably want to knight asap.

    I'm also expecting one to be a lady-knight. Now I know there is a trend to ignore the suggested stat differences between men and women, however the player wants to sign up for a harder road and I'd like to explore the implications with the development path you're working on in this thread.

    BoK&L suggests random female characters start with 2d6+2 SIZ and STR, 1d6+2 less than males or an average of -5.5 in each (-11 stats versus maximum). They do get a +4 to APP.... All this means however, that an aspiring female squire is going to have some serious growing to do in order to hit minimum knighting stats. Now if you're starting all squires at 1d6+7 in attributes other than APP, how might the SIZ/STR penalty be represented? As a buy-off that slows growth? (So every other stat point only reduces penalty by 1, until it is zero.)
    Yeah, the difference in attribute points right off the bat on the basis of gender alone is no bueno in my opinion. What would be better would be to apply the differences as cultural modifiers, in my opinion.

    Give your lady squire:

    -2 SIZ
    -2 STR
    +3 CON (As Normal)
    +4 APP

    Note that this also means that this also changes her maximums to 16 SIZ and 16 STR, she'll need glory points to reach 6d6.

    Instead of flat 7, their starting points ought to be 1d6+

    5 SIZ
    7 DEX
    5 STR
    10 CON
    11 APP

    That way, at Fourteen your girl character will have, on default, 8 SIZ, 10 DEX, 8 STR, 13 CON, 14 APP. She'll need five points to get to 4d6, She'll have 6 points at age 15, counting her 2GP, also giving her 27HP. She would be better served by waiting until 21 though, because by that point she'll just be able to nudge her way up to 30 HP and 5d6 with her 1GP: 17 SIZ, 10 DEX, 10 STR, 13 CON, 14 APP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khanwulf View Post
    Yes, we could simply say "a female squire/knight is going to be a physical outlier already in order to qualify, so ignore penalties!" And I very well might do this, but since I only have 2 PCs stat disparities are not going to create a table issue and as this is Uther period 4d6 damage is a bit less of a problem.
    I am generally inclined to err on the side of equality on the grounds that she wouldn't be a squire if she were too dainty to do the job, but it's entirely up to you. As far as 4d6 goes, from my own experience, it is very noticeable, even in the Uther period, unless you're not planning on going up against other knights. 4d6 is only an average of 14 damage, that bounces right off mail+shield. I suppose a remedy would be to favor axes and maces, but that's still a pretty sizable disadvantage given breakage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khanwulf View Post
    As a note, I'd probably still take the detailed cultural skills as base from BoK&L--do you think that would throw off maturation skill points? The book suggests 16-y.o. squires/maids drop any starting skill by 3 points or to 5, whichever is higher. All this obviously tanks female combat skills--which are thin anyway in BoK&L, meaning that one would knight later to meet minimum requirements.
    I assume that the female skills are meant for lady characters, not squires. Being good at fashion isn't inherent to possessing ovaries (although some knight might think this in character), that's just the skillset noblewomen are trained in instead of warfare. In the case of your female character, I would give her the 'male' starting skills, since the assumption is that they were given a masculine education.

    As far as whether it throws off the skill maturation, you only need to make two adjustments. Cap the Ordinary Skills at 5 each (leaving 51 total between them) and cap the Combat Skills at 8 each (Total of 41).

    BoKL gives you 65 skill points total by 21 (assuming you use all 2 of the stat raises on skills) +116 base for a sum of 181, in this system you get 90 Skill points by 21 +90 base for a sum of 180, 182 if you hybridize the starting values (51+41 base).

    Since you aren't randomizing combat skills however, no characters are going to be able to qualify for knighthood until 15 at the very earliest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khanwulf View Post

    Speaking of minimum requirements: why is "Trait at 16" in there? You can start a KaP knight with no Traits at 16+ if you choose, so that requirement seems arbitrary and (perhaps) intended to gate immediate knighthood prospects to characters receiving Trait bonuses from culture (and who rolled well).

    --Khanwulf
    Bingo, I initially put that there forgetting that having a famous trait was optional, and I wasn't considering the BoKL cutural trait bonuses. Th best way to do this would be to simply let the players pick 1 trait at 16 instead of rolling 2d6+3. That way they could go straight to getting valorous out of the way at 14 if they want to.
    Last edited by Mr.47; 06-15-2018 at 10:33 PM.

  3. #13
    When I go for rolling random my basic chargen rule is that everyone rolls and then can choose to use any set of stats rolled by any other player.

    Obviously with a lot of players you tend to have a party of higher stat people but I find with the usual 4 I get that it works out. Especially since you have to roll for specific stats, you don't get to move the numbers around, you have to use them in order.

    I've only used variable starting skill ratings in my last mini-campaign and to do so I divided them into categories with a base rating for knights dependent on stats.
    Knightly (battle, horsemanship, awareness, hunting): Based on average of DEX+EDU
    Combat (weapons): Based on average of STR+DEX
    Courtly: Based on APP
    Scholarly: Based on EDU
    Common: Based on DEX, but you're a knight so why do you want them?

    EDU is stolen from BRP and based largely on social class and culture (Romans get +2, otherwise vassal knights are 2d6+3)

    Then you get all the skills in each category at 1/4 base value, a few at 1/2 and one or two at full.

  4. #14
    Thanks guys. Followup:

    Q: so is BotE considered preferable to BoK&L for squire characters based on order of release?

    Back the points on female squires:

    Yes, agreed--there are essentially two tracks for female characters who are taking a try at knighthood.

    1. They were raised for it, like the boys, and as such should have minimal physical penalties (I like Mr. 47's version best) and skill points per squire normal.

    2. They were raised as maidens and this "career change" is sudden and gloriously unplanned. Use BoK&L for skills. Stats... probably still should use a minimalistic variance version (Morien or Mr. 47) since the point is for the character to succeed after being thrust into a life of arms following someone's ill-advised oath/bet/whatever. Being "too dainty" simply wouldn't work for good story, or at least would create more comedy (and frustration).

    And of course, there is the zero-variance option for egalitarian play. I'm comfortable, however, in asking such a PK to invest the GP into reaching the higher damage values--that seams like a nod to realism.

    By the way, Mr. 47, I really like the idea of using attribute modifiers for female squires/knights as part of their cultural package. This could enable modeling cultures who are not post-Roman British and expected less elegance and more violence out of their women. I'm thinking of the legendary practices of the Alans, for example, who supposedly wouldn't permit a girl to marry until she killed a man in battle!

    Edit: this is also a good place to point out that the penalty women get to Valorous (-1d6+3) should also be at best a cultural modifier and probably dropped if they trained for arms like the boys. (See BoK&L p.46)

    Uther period standard knightly armor is hauberk+shield, so average 13-14 points depending on rolls. Yes, 4d6 is going to struggle with that... for my exact case this *shouldn't* be a problem, because I know the player is going to dump points into skill and compensate through crit-hunting. We'll see however!

    --Khanwulf
    Last edited by Khanwulf; 06-18-2018 at 02:17 PM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khanwulf View Post
    Thanks guys. Followup:
    Q: so is BotE considered preferable to BoK&L for squire characters based on order of release?
    As far as I know, yes.

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